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  #11  
Old 12-07-2017
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dwb79 dwb79 is offline
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Originally Posted by ChrisCross View Post
Terry, I am interested in how it is that the oil companies and their engineers make mistakes in producing oils for specific applications that are as not well suited as oils specified for other applications used in that different application?

Do you have a link for the testing you did?

Of course you know that shock oil is subjected to much higher temperatures in use than fork oil. Good shock oils have viscosity indexes around 400 which keeps damping more consistent over the wide temperature ranges experienced by the shock in use.

Fork oils are generally no better than 150 for VI. Usually closer to 100. I would expect a fork oil in a shock would be subject to more viscosity change over temperature than a more specific shock oil. That's the theory the oil company hydraulic engineers spruke in any case.

In your testing did you test the fork oils at elevated temperatures similar to a shock environment?

How did the oils fail? Viscosity loss, shearing?

Cheers

I've spent a fair amount of time testing oils recently. I don't think its as much about the oil companies making "mistakes" as much as sacrificing one area to gain in another area.

A good example of this is the new Motorex fork oil formula. While it is much more slippery than the older formula, which is great for telescoping forks, it isn't as temperature stable. So in my opinion, it its better in forks, but isn't as good in shocks any more.

I'm really not sure what the engineers were thinking when they made the SD1 oil. The VI is simply too low. This is confirmed when calculating the VI from the supplied viscosities, by rider feedback and by dyno measurement.
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  #12  
Old 09-08-2017
ChrisCross ChrisCross is offline
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thanks dwb79 for the information and to Medium Rare for the bump.

dwb79 I was implying "mistakes" made by oil companies based upon Terry's findings when he was doing his oil testing.

I mean, the oil companies have access to a wide array of laboratory testing equipment usually when developing oils.

So what I don't understand is how a fork oil can perform better than a shock oil in a shock application. Although I did notice on my latest lot of Silkolene RSF it is labelled as fork and shock oil. Silkolene have a fork oil (02) that is supposed to perform better in forks.

The VIs for the fork oil are 260 (02 ISO 22) and 212 (05 ISO 46)
The VIs for the shock fluid 464 (RSF2.5 ISO 15) and 372 (RSF5 ISO 22/32)

The fork oil is quite a jump up in VI compared to most other fork oils.
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  #13  
Old 09-08-2017
bowser bowser is offline
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Shock oils have more additives to make them more temp stable (higher VI), generally this also makes them have a higher coefficient of friction also.

Forks oils are developed to a price point, why add extra additives if they don't need to be as temp stable?

next time I change my shock oil I might send a sample away and also a new oil sample and compare how much the oil has degraded. I would expect the oxidation would be changed a lot due to the heat. Saying that, I just got my shock back from dwb79 so I'm not expecting to have it apart any time soon.
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  #14  
Old 09-08-2017
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Medium Rare Medium Rare is offline
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Originally Posted by ChrisCross View Post
thanks dwb79 for the information and to Medium Rare for the bump.

dwb79 I was implying "mistakes" made by oil companies based upon Terry's findings when he was doing his oil testing.

I mean, the oil companies have access to a wide array of laboratory testing equipment usually when developing oils.

So what I don't understand is how a fork oil can perform better than a shock oil in a shock application. Although I did notice on my latest lot of Silkolene RSF it is labelled as fork and shock oil. Silkolene have a fork oil (02) that is supposed to perform better in forks.

The VIs for the fork oil are 260 (02 ISO 22) and 212 (05 ISO 46)
The VIs for the shock fluid 464 (RSF2.5 ISO 15) and 372 (RSF5 ISO 22/32)

The fork oil is quite a jump up in VI compared to most other fork oils.

It was actually an attempt at humour in relation to your user name..... jump, jump.
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  #15  
Old 09-08-2017
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dwb79 dwb79 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisCross View Post
dwb79 I was implying "mistakes" made by oil companies based upon Terry's findings when he was doing his oil testing.

I mean, the oil companies have access to a wide array of laboratory testing equipment usually when developing oils.

So what I don't understand is how a fork oil can perform better than a shock oil in a shock application.
I don't understand it either, especially when its so easy for a rider to feel or for me to test. Remember that the laboratory testing equipment is just a tool. Having a tape measure doesn't make you a good builder.

Perhaps they have different ideas of what makes an oil good? Perhaps they think it is acceptable that your oil needs to warm up for 20mins before it is stable enough to perform well? Perhaps they have never ridden a dirtbike?

Given that there are so many oils available, that they can be so different and yet each one claims to be the best, how are we to know? Its a good thing they don't come knocking on our doors with glossy flyers on Sunday trying to convert us to the usage of their oils, although that would be better than the other door knockers....
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  #16  
Old 11-08-2017
ChrisCross ChrisCross is offline
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Originally Posted by Medium Rare View Post
It was actually an attempt at humour in relation to your user name..... jump, jump.
I had to google that to work it out. Ok, I got it now. My genre is a little more mature than that. There is a lot more to those jeans down around the thighs than you would believe. You wouldn't believe it if I told you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dwb79 View Post
I don't understand it either, especially when its so easy for a rider to feel or for me to test. Remember that the laboratory testing equipment is just a tool. Having a tape measure doesn't make you a good builder.

Perhaps they have different ideas of what makes an oil good? Perhaps they think it is acceptable that your oil needs to warm up for 20mins before it is stable enough to perform well? Perhaps they have never ridden a dirtbike?

Given that there are so many oils available, that they can be so different and yet each one claims to be the best, how are we to know? Its a good thing they don't come knocking on our doors with glossy flyers on Sunday trying to convert us to the usage of their oils, although that would be better than the other door knockers....
I would expect oil engineers to understand the application well enough. It's stated on the marketing for the oil, so the marketing people even know.

Well it remains a mystery to me. I'd like to see the dyno charts, but Ktm Talk seems like it's not a secure site. So I am not sure if it's a safe site to visit and if the dyno data is still there.
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