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  • Originally posted by OldManRiver View Post
    I dont doubt it PK. Some cut&paste sloppiness by some yank "journalist".
    Not confidence inspiring.
    Perhaps not ?
    People do die of the Flu ?
    Time and tide . .

    Comment


    • Originally posted by pk View Post
      Perhaps not ?
      People do die of the Flu ?
      Yeah, I jumped the gun.
      I get your drift now.
      dr650se previous: dt175, ty175jc, alpina 350, ct110x, xr250y, ty250s, ec300, fr250r
      Its OK to be Human! - hopefully other precious monkeys wont be offended. #SheepToo
      ALL LIVES MATTER!

      Comment


      • It doesn't matter either way, it's all a moot point. PK's argument is based on measuring that which can't be measured, what infection and death rates could/would have been had no action been taken. He's stated previously that he's not criticising the actions taken, but I call BS on this as his words have said all but.

        So, I'll put a subjective proposition across rather then an objective one, if you PK had to make the decision with no opinions around you offering insight or experience of any similar experience in our lifetime, would you take the decision to do less in the interests of the economy, or would you make the call to save as many lives as possible? No stats, no comparisons, no fancy words, just tell me what YOU would have done?
        I love dirtbikes!!

        Comment


        • Over the loudspeaker in a fake stern voice "There are too many people on the beach not exercising !!" ........ -smi
          dr650se previous: dt175, ty175jc, alpina 350, ct110x, xr250y, ty250s, ec300, fr250r
          Its OK to be Human! - hopefully other precious monkeys wont be offended. #SheepToo
          ALL LIVES MATTER!

          Comment


          • Planet America a from last night:
            If every single person in NYC has COVID-19, the death rate is already double that for the flu.
            Beta 200RR

            Comment


            • Originally posted by normanator27 View Post
              It doesn't matter either way, it's all a moot point. PK's argument is based on measuring that which can't be measured, what infection and death rates could/would have been had no action been taken. He's stated previously that he's not criticising the actions taken, but I call BS on this as his words have said all but.

              Interesting that you refer to my posts as an argument
              Also interesting that you draw the BS assumption just by reading a few Posts but you are welcome to your opinion.
              My aim was to try and put data into context/perspective as opposed to all of the noise and distractions from various sources.



              So, I'll put a subjective proposition across rather then an objective one, if you PK had to make the decision with no opinions around you offering insight or experience of any similar experience in our lifetime, would you take the decision to do less in the interests of the economy, or would you make the call to save as many lives as possible? No stats, no comparisons, no fancy words, just tell me what YOU would have done?

              The CEO of McDonalds once asked ‘what business are we in ?’
              Various responses included Fast Food, Hospitality, Convenience etc. .
              His response was ‘Property’, everything else is a means to an end’

              I was once at a high level business meeting in the construction industry.
              A CEO posed the question to the attendees ‘what business are we in ?’
              Various responses were offered such as Construction, Property Development, Engineering etc…
              The CEO’s response was ‘Risk Management’, everything else is a means to an end’
              *paraphrasing the above examples but I’m sure that you get the gist that not everything is as it seems . .

              You pose a high level and hypothetical ‘objective question’ to which the response will be subjectively analysed and from many points of view.

              This Thread seems to indicate a range of views that appear to stand on the merits & values of their authors and we would like to think that they are sufficiently informed as to the current information available (?)
              *not the hysterical rumours and headlines that have very little substance to back up their claims.

              ‘Risk Management’ appears to be the most appropriate (least blunt) tool that is available (?)
              This is then compounded by ‘interested parties’ as to how to implement it to best suits their particular cause.

              Politicians are not medical experts
              Medical experts are not politicians (although some try to be)
              one would hope that between the two there should be some consensus as to a reasonable strategy
              *of course Federal and State politicians will then have their own version of what is best for them (and their perception in the spotlight of public opinion)

              Now add Unions, e.g. the Teachers Union that wants guarantees of safety
              Then add MSM and SM to whip the situation into a frenzy that digs us into a hole and raises the question as to whom is actually in charge ?
              The deeper the hole the harder it is to climb out of it.
              I imagine that it will be fairly tricky to get out of this hole. No one will want to be the first to draw the risk management line as it will most surely be used against them. . .


              Back to your Post
              It is not ‘what I would do’ as this was not my original intention
              I am neither a medical expert nor politician (whew)
              My Posts were more an attempt to put data into objective context and hope for some rational thinking and appropriate actions.
              The actions should be constantly under review and any early overreactions should therefore be acknowledged and dealt will appropriately.
              Medical experts and especially Politicians are not known for admitting 'errors'

              It's all a moot point - but that does not mean it should be ignored . .
              response above . . :grinning-
              Time and tide . .

              Comment


              • WHO, no evidence you can't get it twice, WELL DUH.

                It hasn't been with us for 80 years so we can't know how long the antibodies last and how well they fight off a secondary infection.

                WHO feeding the Media fodder to scare the public.
                .
                Ignorance leads to confidence more often than knowledge does
                .

                Comment


                • Originally posted by pk View Post
                  Originally Posted by normanator27 View Post
                  It doesn't matter either way, it's all a moot point. PK's argument is based on measuring that which can't be measured, what infection and death rates could/would have been had no action been taken. He's stated previously that he's not criticising the actions taken, but I call BS on this as his words have said all but.

                  Interesting that you refer to my posts as an argument
                  Also interesting that you draw the BS assumption just by reading a few Posts but you are welcome to your opinion.
                  My aim was to try and put data into context/perspective as opposed to all of the noise and distractions from various sources.


                  So, I'll put a subjective proposition across rather then an objective one, if you PK had to make the decision with no opinions around you offering insight or experience of any similar experience in our lifetime, would you take the decision to do less in the interests of the economy, or would you make the call to save as many lives as possible? No stats, no comparisons, no fancy words, just tell me what YOU would have done?

                  The CEO of McDonalds once asked ‘what business are we in ?’
                  Various responses included Fast Food, Hospitality, Convenience etc. .
                  His response was ‘Property’, everything else is a means to an end’

                  I was once at a high level business meeting in the construction industry.
                  A CEO posed the question to the attendees ‘what business are we in ?’
                  Various responses were offered such as Construction, Property Development, Engineering etc…
                  The CEO’s response was ‘Risk Management’, everything else is a means to an end’
                  *paraphrasing the above examples but I’m sure that you get the gist that not everything is as it seems . .

                  You pose a high level and hypothetical ‘objective question’ to which the response will be subjectively analysed and from many points of view.

                  This Thread seems to indicate a range of views that appear to stand on the merits & values of their authors and we would like to think that they are sufficiently informed as to the current information available (?)
                  *not the hysterical rumours and headlines that have very little substance to back up their claims.

                  ‘Risk Management’ appears to be the most appropriate (least blunt) tool that is available (?)
                  This is then compounded by ‘interested parties’ as to how to implement it to best suits their particular cause.

                  Politicians are not medical experts
                  Medical experts are not politicians (although some try to be)
                  one would hope that between the two there should be some consensus as to a reasonable strategy
                  *of course Federal and State politicians will then have their own version of what is best for them (and their perception in the spotlight of public opinion)

                  Now add Unions, e.g. the Teachers Union that wants guarantees of safety
                  Then add MSM and SM to whip the situation into a frenzy that digs us into a hole and raises the question as to whom is actually in charge ?
                  The deeper the hole the harder it is to climb out of it.
                  I imagine that it will be fairly tricky to get out of this hole. No one will want to be the first to draw the risk management line as it will most surely be used against them. . .


                  Back to your Post
                  It is not ‘what I would do’ as this was not my original intention
                  I am neither a medical expert nor politician (whew)
                  My Posts were more an attempt to put data into objective context and hope for some rational thinking and appropriate actions.
                  The actions should be constantly under review and any early overreactions should therefore be acknowledged and dealt will appropriately.
                  Medical experts and especially Politicians are not known for admitting 'errors'




                  It's all a moot point - but that does not mean it should be ignored . .
                  response above . . :grinning-
                  I understand completely what you're getting at, yet you still haven't answered my question. I just seek your personal opinion based on the info you've gathered.

                  I also am glad that I am neither a medical expert nor politician, those people had and continue to have some extraordinarily difficult decisions to make. While I certainly didn't vote for him, I feel that Scott Morrison has handled this situation rather well under the most trying of circumstances, as I think have the premiers of NSW and Vic in particular. I shudder to think what might be happening if Dutton was in charge, or Shorten for that matter.

                  You mentioned that your posts were 'an attempt to put data into objective context and hope for some rational thinking and appropriate actions', yet you continually compare what is, with what might have been had we handled the situation differently, and I don't see this as 'objective context' because it's two very different scenarios, apples and oranges as I keep calling it. I fail to comprehend how you can't see this, but I am open to you pointing out what I might be missing.

                  Finally, you mention 'the actions should be constantly under review and any early overreactions should therefore be acknowledged and dealt will appropriately. Medical experts and especially Politicians are not known for admitting 'errors'. Couldn't agree with this more as I feel that peoples hopes that this might be a 'once in a lifetime event' might be in for a rude shock if certain practices in different parts of the world are not brought to an end. Certainly, as one that would advocate for putting people before money each and every time, I can see that the length and width of the current fiscal rescue package cannot be repeated in our lifetimes. As far as acknowledgement of any over/under reaction definitely needs to happen and recorded so as to make sure that if it can be done better the next time then it will. How much of this though can be made public, well I'm not so sure. Society needs to feel a certain level of confidence in the establishment, the casting of too much doubt over the actions of our leaders could be very bad if future pandemics occur. The whole panic buying thing was just scratching the surface of the civil unrest that might have unfolded if the public lost confidence in those tasked with keeping it all together.
                  I love dirtbikes!!

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by normanator27 View Post
                    I understand completely what you're getting at, yet you still haven't answered my question. I just seek your personal opinion based on the info you've gathered.

                    I also am glad that I am neither a medical expert nor politician, those people had and continue to have some extraordinarily difficult decisions to make. While I certainly didn't vote for him, I feel that Scott Morrison has handled this situation rather well under the most trying of circumstances, as I think have the premiers of NSW and Vic in particular. I shudder to think what might be happening if Dutton was in charge, or Shorten for that matter.

                    You mentioned that your posts were 'an attempt to put data into objective context and hope for some rational thinking and appropriate actions', yet you continually compare what is, with what might have been had we handled the situation differently, and I don't see this as 'objective context' because it's two very different scenarios, apples and oranges as I keep calling it. I fail to comprehend how you can't see this, but I am open to you pointing out what I might be missing.

                    Finally, you mention 'the actions should be constantly under review and any early overreactions should therefore be acknowledged and dealt will appropriately. Medical experts and especially Politicians are not known for admitting 'errors'. Couldn't agree with this more as I feel that peoples hopes that this might be a 'once in a lifetime event' might be in for a rude shock if certain practices in different parts of the world are not brought to an end. Certainly, as one that would advocate for putting people before money each and every time, I can see that the length and width of the current fiscal rescue package cannot be repeated in our lifetimes. As far as acknowledgement of any over/under reaction definitely needs to happen and recorded so as to make sure that if it can be done better the next time then it will. How much of this though can be made public, well I'm not so sure. Society needs to feel a certain level of confidence in the establishment, the casting of too much doubt over the actions of our leaders could be very bad if future pandemics occur. The whole panic buying thing was just scratching the surface of the civil unrest that might have unfolded if the public lost confidence in those tasked with keeping it all together.
                    I think that i now get your question and i also understand that it may have been a little confusing to deduce my position from my Posts

                    I would be classed as someone in the 'vulnerable/at risk' category myself on age alone - but I am fit, healthy and responsible

                    I approach CV more from an anti authoritatian point of view - or better yet 'accountability'
                    Governments try to act as though they know what is best for 'everyone' as if there was one 'fix'
                    - although their current position of power and re-election focus dictates their actions (however they try to spin it)
                    Opposition politicians struggle to agree with government and therefore confuse the situation even more
                    State goverments again compound an already difficult situation

                    Medical experts again have good intentions but the industry is run as an overall business and they have their own agenda, KPI's etc. . .
                    This is not a criticism, just an observation
                    *both of the above were hinted at in my comment that everything is not what it seems

                    I don't necessarily agree with your comment:
                    Society needs to feel a certain level of confidence in the establishment, the casting of too much doubt over the actions of our leaders could be very bad if future pandemics occur
                    A Body that holds itself to account is by definition virtually unaccountable.
                    I am not looking at a witch hunt / scape goat scenario but i (would like to) believe that people would have more confidence in a transparent system that acknowledges and rectifies past errors in judgement - even or especially if they were only acting on the limited information available at the time

                    CV is no doubt a bad virus but it is something that we will have to 'adapt to' and learn to live with rather than cower in the bunkers.

                    If anything good comes from all of the panic, hystreia and overreaction (my terminology) then i hope that it is a new found appreciation of basic health, hygene and social responsibility . .

                    Live each day as your last - and one day you will be correct
                    Last edited by pk; 26-04-2020, 08:27 AM.
                    Time and tide . .

                    Comment


                    • I've not seen the actual quote so I'll paraphrase my understanding:-

                      The WHO has announced that there is no evidence of immunity against CV reinfection.

                      Of course the unwritten part is that there is no reliable evidence of reinfection. It would tend to go against past experience with viruses, but its not out of the question.

                      If it is true, then any concept of herd immunity to CV is out of the question, and the major stream of traditional vaccine development is doomed to disappointment.
                      dr650se previous: dt175, ty175jc, alpina 350, ct110x, xr250y, ty250s, ec300, fr250r
                      Its OK to be Human! - hopefully other precious monkeys wont be offended. #SheepToo
                      ALL LIVES MATTER!

                      Comment


                      • CV deaths in NSW stand at 36 (National 81)

                        An 83-year-old man died on Saturday morning
                        A 96-year-old woman on Friday morning
                        A woman in her late 70s on Thursday
                        Earlier fatalities include a woman and two men all aged in their 90s.

                        No health details were given

                        - a pattern here ?
                        Time and tide . .

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by OldManRiver View Post
                          I've not seen the actual quote so I'll paraphrase my understanding:-

                          The WHO has announced that there is no evidence of immunity against CV reinfection.

                          Of course the unwritten part is that there is no reliable evidence of reinfection. It would tend to go against past experience with viruses, but its not out of the question.

                          If it is true, then any concept of herd immunity to CV is out of the question, and the major stream of traditional vaccine development is doomed to disappointment.
                          Nothing to be true, they're not claiming one way or the other.

                          Herd immunity still works either way, just the Herd keeps getting smaller if you can get reinfected.
                          .
                          Ignorance leads to confidence more often than knowledge does
                          .

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by pk View Post
                            CV deaths in NSW stand at 36 (National 81)

                            An 83-year-old man died on Saturday morning
                            A 96-year-old woman on Friday morning
                            A woman in her late 70s on Thursday
                            Earlier fatalities include a woman and two men all aged in their 90s.

                            No health details were given

                            - a pattern here ?
                            Pattern, outbreak in aged care facilities, and the known one, older peoples immune system and well worn organs struggle with this new virus and many other illnesses.
                            .
                            Ignorance leads to confidence more often than knowledge does
                            .

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Tom68 View Post
                              Nothing to be true, they're not claiming one way or the other.
                              As I said, I've not seen the quote, only the ABC's bastardisation. Are you saying my understanding of the WHO announcement is incorrect?

                              Herd immunity still works either way, just the Herd keeps getting smaller if you can get reinfected.
                              I dont understand. Doesnt seem to be a herd worth belonging to.
                              ..
                              dr650se previous: dt175, ty175jc, alpina 350, ct110x, xr250y, ty250s, ec300, fr250r
                              Its OK to be Human! - hopefully other precious monkeys wont be offended. #SheepToo
                              ALL LIVES MATTER!

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by OldManRiver View Post
                                ..
                                The WHO didn't really say anything, there's a move to tag recovered people and let them roam free, the WHO warns against it because they don't yet know if these people will get it again or even just spread it.

                                Point is they don't know, claims have come out of China about reinfection and they're getting shut down as poor testing.

                                May not be nice to think we have to live with this, but we may have to and the resultant Herd is better to be alive in than not, although they are attributing some Lung, Heart and Kidney damage for some recovered's from the Virus.
                                .
                                Ignorance leads to confidence more often than knowledge does
                                .

                                Comment

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