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  • Originally posted by OldManRiver View Post
    This I sympathise with. But dont go thinking you're doing anything to control or eliminate the Corona virus. The app is an ineffective placebo sop that does not stand up to scrutiny.
    You will have noted that India has now made the app mandatory.
    Can you wholeheartedly say that self-interest does not form the basis of your position Trent?
    Do you think your position might change if, despite your reliance on the app, one or more of your staff members or customers dies from CV caught at your shop?
    I understand, but still don't get the paranoia. It's not mandatory and India is hardly a comparable example (same place where the Police were beating people with rubber pipes if they were out and about for no reason).

    Of course, on all levels there's self interest. For me, it's an interest in seeing things get back to normal ASAP. That interest just so happens to align with a flow on benefit for the greater majority. If I wasn't in business I doubt my attitude would be any different.

    As for a death scenario relating to my store, how is that any different to the risk I face in business every day with death or injury to a staff member or customer? Given total active cases in Australia are now under 900, I'd say the risk of COVID related incidences are no more than everything else. Anything can happen and some of the things people do would blow you away (miss-handling dangerous tools, idiots in the car park, etc, etc, etc).

    Originally posted by Max at the Flat View Post
    The point is they are pushing to have the app in use so that you can go back to a normal life, no app installed no beer at the pub for you...….he says it in the story I linked to, just apply to any scenario that can be justified and away we go

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-...china/12182268
    And? Still can't see a justification for paranoia.

    I do see a lot of people wanting their cake and eating it too though.

    If you present yourself to a dangerous work site and refuse to comply with safety precautions, are you allowed to enter?

    You still have a choice. In this instance, it's either stay in lock down, or accept the requirements to go out.:grinning- Right now we're a hell of a long way away from that.
    Last edited by tmac450; 04-05-2020, 11:04 AM.
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    • Originally posted by tmac450 View Post
      As for a death scenario relating to my store, how is that any different to the risk I face in business every day with death or injury to a staff member or customer? Given total active cases in Australia are now under 900, I'd say the risk of COVID related incidences are no more than everything else.
      So, am I entitled to read between the lines, that you have no confidence in the efficacy of the app? That you are encouraging its use to shut the government up and let us get on with the business of life? That is a cogent position.
      But some of us are entitled to believe that if you let the government get away with one illogical, meaningless sop, there will most certainly be others.
      I can stand to have my rights impeded for a good reason - the app is not one.
      P.S. my phone is still gonna stay switched off in my top drawer - its usual place. I'll go to gaol for that if needs be.
      dr650se previous: dt175, ty175jc, alpina 350, ct110x, xr250y, ty250s, ec300, fr250r
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      • Originally posted by Spac View Post
        The difference is that this is directly identifying an individual, AND gives express permission to track the individual.

        The other forms of tracking are sneaky and pervasive, but the target has a number of things going in their favour. Things like not being directly identified, being held by a number of different organisations, and that it is not legal for any of them to directly use most of the information they gather.

        The app has the potential to erase/over ride all of that.

        I am reasonably aware of my digital footprint, and have taken actions to balance it vs the benefits I get from being online. This doesn’t make me invisible by any means, but it’s like my carbon footprint - even though perfection is impossible, there’s still value in minimising our footprint.

        Edit: if the app works as advertised, then it will be useless regardless of how many people download it. More or less, it comes down to: Either the app won’t help with managing COVID or it spies on us far more than they are telling us.
        Either way...
        You need to look into this a bit more.

        For a start, you don't need to supply any real personal details, you're allowed to use a fake name, you don't need to enter an address, postcode is optional and the only other thing is asks for is an age range, which can also be falsified.

        The info is held on a secure and multi-facet controlled Australian server which is deleted every 20 or 30 days. Access to the information requires approval and a valid reason.

        As for what's already in place, you're kidding yourself. Not only is this information put there, it's controlled by private corporations. Personal information including your picture and spending habits is recorded and used.

        Permission doesn't need to be sought (you need to opt out, if you know you've opted in to start with) and ts & cs buried deep in websites, etc are an easy out. Buy anything online and you're done.

        A marketing seminar I attended last year for TT was mind blowing on what is in use now. Data can be accessed on even the most prudent operators that would make your hair curl.

        The irony is, everyone worried about loss of privacy, thin edge of the wedge, not trusting the government etc, are actually relying on that same government to protect their privacy on other fronts (see bold section above).

        Seriously think about it for a second. The govt doesn't need an app to invade your privacy and if they did, any such govt would't give two tosses about upholding or enforcing privacy laws on any other front.

        Similar to consumer regulations I guess. They're mainly there to make punters feel protected while deceptive businesses use that same perceived perception to rip punters off on a daily basis and get away with it.
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        • Originally posted by OldManRiver View Post
          So, am I entitled to read between the lines, that you have no confidence in the efficacy of the app? That you are encouraging its use to shut the government up and let us get on with the business of life? That is a cogent position.
          But some of us are entitled to believe that if you let the government get away with one illogical, meaningless sop, there will most certainly be others.
          I can stand to have my rights impeded for a good reason - the app is not one.
          P.S. my phone is still gonna stay switched off in my top drawer - its usual place. I'll go to gaol for that if needs be.
          Yes, but again, you're taking a massive leap from a request to use an app to facing gaol.

          See my post above, you're kidding yourself if you think it's not already happening. The don't need an app.
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          • Originally posted by tmac450 View Post
            Given total active cases in Australia are now under 900, I'd say the risk of COVID related incidences are no more than everything else.
            This highlights why the app is a pointless exercise.

            Even if the actual active cases was 10x the confirmed ones, why do 10 million people need an app to see if they've been close to 1 of the 9000.

            Scomo is about to lose some shine if his plan is to blackmail us into downloading the app to get some of our freedoms back.

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            • Originally posted by 380EXCQLD View Post
              Scomo is about to lose some shine if his plan is to blackmail us into downloading the app to get some of our freedoms back.
              Why? He was being bagged earlier on for not introducing the app and not doing enough.

              Still failing to see justification for paranoia

              IF there's a call for the app to become compulsory, then you can start whining.
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              • Originally posted by Spac View Post
                Edit: if the app works as advertised, then it will be useless regardless of how many people download it. More or less, it comes down to: Either the app won’t help with managing COVID or it spies on us far more than they are telling us.
                Either way...
                Gee Nathan, are we the only two people is OZ who see this?? At least nobodies gonna think that we come to this understanding through shared political ideology.
                But, it wont help managing CV, whether or not it spies on us more than they're saying.
                dr650se previous: dt175, ty175jc, alpina 350, ct110x, xr250y, ty250s, ec300, fr250r
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                • Originally posted by tmac450 View Post
                  Yes, but again, you're taking a massive leap from a request to use an app to facing gaol.
                  In steps:-
                  . Please download the app
                  . Download the app if you want pubs to open
                  . Oh apps not fulfilling its objectives, we'll have to make it mandatory
                  . Its mandatory, but we'll have to fill the loopholes with penalties
                  . Steve goes to gaol for not carrying his phone.

                  Have you considered the possibility of restricting entry to your store to those staff and customers who can prove they have an active app with no CV positive status? You might have to.
                  dr650se previous: dt175, ty175jc, alpina 350, ct110x, xr250y, ty250s, ec300, fr250r
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                  • Originally posted by tmac450 View Post
                    Why? He was being bagged earlier on for not introducing the app and not doing enough.

                    Still failing to see justification for paranoia

                    IF there's a call for the app to become compulsory, then you can start whining.
                    The idiots that bagged him for an app need to wake up to themselves.

                    I'm not paranoid, just cautious.
                    It keeps me alive in the dangerous environments I work in, far more than any OH&S policy. Thanks for the analogy :grinning-

                    I still fail to see a logical justification for the app.
                    If it's just a gimmick to make the fearful feel warm and fuzzy, so be it.
                    Call it what it is.

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                    • Originally posted by 380EXCQLD View Post
                      The idiots that bagged him for an app need to wake up to themselves.
                      I'm not paranoid, just cautious.
                      It keeps me alive in the dangerous environments I work in, far more than any OH&S policy. Thanks for the analogy :grinning-
                      I still fail to see a logical justification for the app.
                      If it's just a gimmick to make the fearful feel warm and fuzzy, so be it.
                      Call it what it is.
                      Couldnt have said it better myself .... or maybe I did.
                      Whatever, 100% agreed.
                      dr650se previous: dt175, ty175jc, alpina 350, ct110x, xr250y, ty250s, ec300, fr250r
                      Its OK to be Human! - hopefully other precious monkeys wont be offended. #SheepToo
                      ALL LIVES MATTER!

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                      • Originally posted by OldManRiver View Post
                        In steps:-
                        . Please download the app
                        . Download the app if you want pubs to open
                        . Oh apps not fulfilling its objectives, we'll have to make it mandatory
                        . Its mandatory, but we'll have to fill the loopholes with penalties
                        . Steve goes to gaol for not carrying his phone.

                        Have you considered the possibility of restricting entry to your store to those staff and customers who can prove they have an active app with no CV positive status? You might have to.
                        We'll cross that bridge when we come to it. Whatever it takes really.

                        Still can't see the issue. It's not mandatory and is a long way from being such.

                        Originally posted by 380EXCQLD View Post
                        The idiots that bagged him for an app need to wake up to themselves.

                        I'm not paranoid, just cautious.
                        It keeps me alive in the dangerous environments I work in, far more than any OH&S policy. Thanks for the analogy :grinning-

                        I still fail to see a logical justification for the app.
                        If it's just a gimmick to make the fearful feel warm and fuzzy, so be it.
                        Call it what it is.
                        You're forgetting what has already been established. A person can be smart, people are stupid.

                        That's exactly what it is. So are 99% of the so called renewable energy policies and global warming policies (among other things) around the world.

                        What's your point?
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                        • Funny how tmac has become the advocate for big brother.

                          None of that stuff about data retention is news. You’re missing or misunderstanding the point I was making about what is useful in the legal sense, and the effort required to look it up on the individual level.

                          Any number of private corporations already have way more information about us than we’d like, and it sucks.
                          But they are limited in what they can do with the information. Obviously a bunch of advertising/marketing stuff, but an individual is unlikely to go to gaol over it.

                          This is different to a government tracking app. As you know, I am NOT a small government fan boi, but that doesn’t mean I support a big brother government.
                          Last edited by Spac; 04-05-2020, 12:56 PM.
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                          • I'm running the app. I also have my doubts about its effectiveness and I don't believe my privacy has been compromised any more than it already was before this thing came along.
                            The only reason I've got it is to get the numbers up and humour the Govt so I can go to the pub on Friday.
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                            • Originally posted by DV8 View Post
                              I'm running the app. I also have my doubts about its effectiveness and I don't believe my privacy has been compromised any more than it already was before this thing came along.
                              The only reason I've got it is to get the numbers up and humour the Govt so I can go to the pub on Friday.
                              That is a fair reason and fingers crossed it will become a reality
                              *the skeptic in me says that i still may not be able to
                              Time and tide . .

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                              • Originally posted by DV8 View Post
                                The only reason I've got it is to get the numbers up and humour the Govt so I can go to the pub on Friday.
                                Thats the only reason I might eventually download it too. But not before all the legislating is done, and the source code is released. But, I still wont mostly carry my phone with me.
                                dr650se previous: dt175, ty175jc, alpina 350, ct110x, xr250y, ty250s, ec300, fr250r
                                Its OK to be Human! - hopefully other precious monkeys wont be offended. #SheepToo
                                ALL LIVES MATTER!

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