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  • 2021 TM300en Questions

    Anyone familiar with late model TM's?

    My first is turning up in a few days. 6 speed, electric start and kick, KYB's lots of other nice bits etc. Heart said yes, brain said buy a Reiju

    I've trawled through countless threads and got a lot of info unfortunately a lot of it may be out of date given how old some of those threads are.

    I've read and understand the issues with high compression and pump fuel being used but given I only go through 5-10 litres every weekend or two I'm ok with running race fuel like ELF102 or Cheetah 100 if that solves any of the issues I've read about and I'm not concerned about power with race fuel more so consistency and reliability.

    Question is do they run rich from factory? and is this because its designed to be used with an oxygenated race fuel? Advise from the fuel manufacturer states fueling needs to be increased slightly when running this fuel over standard pump fuel?

    Not sure of the carbies stock settings either but does anyone use a similar fuel 102 octane 3.5%O2 and if so how far off stock carby settings are you running. TM jetting app looked good but not enough fuel options in there. Closest may be VP MRX02 and the app suggest 180 main, N1EF, 48 pilot, air screw 1.5 and throttle valve 6.5 based on local weather/altitude

    Last question is I've heard mixed views on the HGS pipe and whether I'm better just storing for later if I sell the bike and getting a Scalvini or Pro Circuit. Bottom end and being about to lug it far more important than top end though I do a bit of both.

    Thanks in advance

  • #2
    I can't offer you much Rupes. I do like you for your genuine & articulate posts.
    Back in the day: I'd source/buy Avgas from the Airport: It's likely harder today.
    I didn't notice more power (WR-430-2T). Yet, less pinging & it ran far cleaner.
    Bike was harder to stall & seemed to have more torque: Consider-it maybe?
    There are Octane-Boosters available... I've never used them: So I can't say.

    Edit: Don't buy the highest octane from the fuel pump: Full of Ethanol piss.
    Rather: Use the middle-fuel & add-additives; if you find the bike is pinging.
    Poor-combustion is likely a head-issue.. It's relatively easily fixed: Suss-it.
    You need to get-have that sussed; if that's a case; pinging does damage.
    A thicker head-gasket will solve-it... Sadly, that'll also stifle it's character.

    Edit2: Keep-retain the pipe-idea as-a future-option.
    Imo: If you try that atm: It's akin to-from square-one.
    That's all fine; if you could be bothered; that's not me.
    Personally, I'd fiddle & have that-thing fully sorted-out.
    Then I'd fiddle some-more & make-it truly spectacular.
    The More I Learn... The Less I Know.
    That Which Doesn't Change... Stays The Same.
    Those That Don't Fall... Just Aren't Trying Hard Enough.
    Genius or Idiot... Sadly it's Defined by the Mediocre Masses... With their Hindsight.
    Dicklaimer... The Text above is to be Evaluated by a Responsible Person... Prior to Any Action Being Taken.

    *George Carlin*What We Do*No Bravery*Tell the Truth*911*Genetic Armageddon*Carbon Tax*Interplanetary Climate Change*Fracking*Shock Doctrine*Extinction Protocol*

    Comment


    • #3
      As I have no experience with late model TMs, I can only offer general comments...

      TM had a love of terrible, 1980s combustion chamber shapes at least into the late 00s - and based on what you've said, it sounds like they still do.
      I have no idea why they do this - the benefits of a tight squish band have been well known for decades now. The old style mostly-hemispherical head with a narrow (radially) and wide (height) squish band offers a small improvement at the very top end, at a large cost to the rest of the rev range.
      The problem isn't the compression ratio itself, its a bad head design combined with a fairly high compression ratio.

      Your reasoning regarding overly rich all sounds logical to me, although I'd add that richening the jetting is a way to avoid detonation in a detonation-prone combustion chamber.

      While race fuel is a simple work-around, it is still a work-around.
      I would take the head off and (assuming it is still a 1980s design) send it to someone like TSP who can bring it into the 21st century.
      This will allow the jetting to be leaned off, making more power, using less fuel, and allowing you to use normal pump fuel. It will also make the bike easier to start. In practical terms, there's no bad point.

      Super interested to hear what a ride report ! Even among the TM weirdos, the new ones are pretty much unknown.
      Beta 200RR

      Comment


      • #4
        Weren’t the 2021’s injected?
        The carby models were jetted quite rich. A needle swap gets them in the range easily.
        Current toys, Subaru powered Manxter buggy, 2018 Gasgas Ec300, Mt-09 Tracer 2016,
        Previous toys, TM En300 2016, 2004 Ec300, 2009 Tenere 660, 1996 Cr250, 1984 Yz100, 2006 FZ6, 1981 Z750, 1981 XL250s.

        If you could reason with religious people there would be no religious people.. House.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by gasser nate View Post
          Weren’t the 2021’s injected?
          The carby models were jetted quite rich. A needle swap gets them in the range easily.
          I thought you could choose EFI or carby?
          The lack of discussion about the EFI makes me very wary - but there's hardly any discussion of them in any way, so who knows?
          Beta 200RR

          Comment


          • #6
            Yes, they have EFI and carby however transfer port injection isn't quite the same as fuel injection on a 4 stroke. The only advantage I saw with TPI was it was better suited to elevation changes. Doubt I'd go much over 1500feet and most of the places I go are well under 1000ft so probably nothing in it for me other than added complexity and a lot more propriety parts to potentially break. Not to mention relying solely on a pretty puny oil pump to prevent major engine damage. Maybe if was a gear driven mechanical pump I'd trust it more, its not like you can ditch it and premix on a TPI. I know a lot of peoples complaint is dealer network and parts but almost everything other than the cases, gearbox, crank and barrel can be sourced from aftermarket including heads with different CC

            I think from more reading the consensus is that they are jetted rich as they are built around running race fuel which is generally oxygenated and therefore needs the extra jetting. Maybe they don't outwardly spec that as it would scare off customers or maybe they assume everyone would. I'll run the race fuel when I get it and go from there, its not that expensive for the amount I'll use and if it solves the rich running and the potential for detonation even better.

            I've already bought it, getting collected from Melbourne next Wednesday and brought up to Sydney. Was getting cold feet last night after reading a lot of the threads re the 00-10 models, thought I felt some buyers remorse coming on Will be taking it out the following Saturday and will have at it and see.

            Comment


            • #7
              I reckon it's f'in rad. Hope you enjoy the bike. I am a potential customer, but without a local dealer I remain sheepish. Hoping this works out well for you, maybe I will commit if you can convince me?

              Comment


              • #8
                My 2016 was an absolute animal and if there was a decent support network I’d still have it. I had mine jetted nice and crisp. Never fouled a plug nor had any top end issues whatsoever. My old specs might be a good starting point. They are in here somewhere.
                Post some pics up when you get it.
                Mine never needed anything more than 95 and never pinged at all either.
                Current toys, Subaru powered Manxter buggy, 2018 Gasgas Ec300, Mt-09 Tracer 2016,
                Previous toys, TM En300 2016, 2004 Ec300, 2009 Tenere 660, 1996 Cr250, 1984 Yz100, 2006 FZ6, 1981 Z750, 1981 XL250s.

                If you could reason with religious people there would be no religious people.. House.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Rupes: Your problem is Pinging, Detonation & Pre-Ignition, Dieseling even... All-essentially the same thing.
                  As-has been suggested; send the head away & have-it spun/cut on a lathe: It's the best option for ideal-fix.

                  There's several other things you could safely experiment with & try yourself with little risk of any damage.
                  These things are worthwhile to be aware-of & contemplate imo.. It-may benefit our-wider DBW audience.

                  * A colder plug may quell pre-ignition somewhat, it may also make the bike harder to start when fully cold.
                  * A copper (or fibre) washer on the spark-plug's-thread might lower the compression-ratio enough to fix-it.

                  * If you're pulling the head: Look for sharp edges & burrs around plug-hole: Chamfer & bevel-it anyways.
                  * Observe if the plug is protruding far-into the combustion-chamber; since that'll-up & raise-compression.

                  * To check it's volume; bolt a piece of flat-plate with two holes drilled into-it (perspex etc) onto the head:
                  * Squirt a water-filled syringe through one of those holes to see/measure what/fill combustion-chamber.

                  * When installing the plug; mark the electrode's position on it's ceramic; aim-it to-point-toward inlet-port.
                  * Retarding ignition-timing is likely facilitated by either moving the sensor or/via software, that may help.

                  * Thicker base-gasket does-same as thicker head-gasket & lulls-ports for more torque, a good idea imo.
                  * If doing/trying my thicker base-gasket idea: Also suss-reset any-effect it may have on the power-valve.
                  The More I Learn... The Less I Know.
                  That Which Doesn't Change... Stays The Same.
                  Those That Don't Fall... Just Aren't Trying Hard Enough.
                  Genius or Idiot... Sadly it's Defined by the Mediocre Masses... With their Hindsight.
                  Dicklaimer... The Text above is to be Evaluated by a Responsible Person... Prior to Any Action Being Taken.

                  *George Carlin*What We Do*No Bravery*Tell the Truth*911*Genetic Armageddon*Carbon Tax*Interplanetary Climate Change*Fracking*Shock Doctrine*Extinction Protocol*

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    So, how's the TM going Rupes?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Anyone have any more to add to this thread? I was super keen on picking up a 22 carby version until I picked up on this fuel issue. Do they really need race fuel?? Not real convenient is it. If anyone could confirm the fuel tank capacity would be great too. There are various quantities mentioned. 9.5l, 8.7l with 12l available as an option. My guess is 8.7l would be the TPI version allowing for the fuel pump but very hard to verify.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Welcome to DBW 'The Hack '... I neglected to mention... Avgas may help/aide... That's quite difficult to source/obtain... Unless you're a mate to a Dentist/Lawyer etc... Who owns/flies a Cessna etc.
                        Edit: Regarding fuel-tank sizes: I'd go 12L... Unless you're paranoid about crunching your balls... There's no-need to-fully fill it-up... Maybe earn kudos by decanting your-spare into mates dry-bikes.
                        The More I Learn... The Less I Know.
                        That Which Doesn't Change... Stays The Same.
                        Those That Don't Fall... Just Aren't Trying Hard Enough.
                        Genius or Idiot... Sadly it's Defined by the Mediocre Masses... With their Hindsight.
                        Dicklaimer... The Text above is to be Evaluated by a Responsible Person... Prior to Any Action Being Taken.

                        *George Carlin*What We Do*No Bravery*Tell the Truth*911*Genetic Armageddon*Carbon Tax*Interplanetary Climate Change*Fracking*Shock Doctrine*Extinction Protocol*

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by The Hack View Post
                          Anyone have any more to add to this thread? I was super keen on picking up a 22 carby version until I picked up on this fuel issue. Do they really need race fuel?? Not real convenient is it. If anyone could confirm the fuel tank capacity would be great too. There are various quantities mentioned. 9.5l, 8.7l with 12l available as an option. My guess is 8.7l would be the TPI version allowing for the fuel pump but very hard to verify.
                          I might have some info for you after Friday. Patience grasshopper.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Update. Well better late than never.

                            Bike has a bit over 20 hours on it, we do pretty hard enduro. Lockdown stuffed things hence the low hours, Don't spend much time on fire trails/4wd sections. Usually 2 hours of engine time doing this over half a day does us in.

                            Fuel? not sure how it runs on pump fuel. I had a 50lt drum of ELF 102 at hand and was mixing it 32:1 with Motul 710. Once that ran out started using Cheetah 100 and Maxima 927 at 40:1 as it doesn't get a hard rev that often. Whether it needs any of this I don't know but jetting shits me and I just wanted something consistent and one less variable. Plus all the previous stuff I read about being high comp and pinging but they were old threads and may have related to much older models.

                            I think the stock tank is around 9 litres. Going to the 12lt means you lose the fresh air intake above the tank and I believe you need to cut the fake vents out on the side covers of the airbox.

                            After 30-40klm over 4 hours I'd have about 2 litres left. So the race fuel = $30 which I don't have issue with. Fuel economy isn't really an issue $ wise over such short trips but would definitely prefer longer range and not have to do loops that need to finish near the car.

                            Jetting, well it seemed to run on the rich side, no fouling plugs though still on the original. I did take suggestions on pilot jets and even tried a JD kit but found it running hotter and boiling over on gnarly hill climbs and not a massive improvement in any case so I reverted to stock needle/clip position/air screw and just a slightly leaner pilot. Another suggestion was a 7.5 slide over the stock 6.5? Can't remember where I read it but it was suggested that without doing this first it was difficult to get the jetting right. Could be truth to that but I never got around to trying it.

                            I dd install a fan a few rides ago but I think it now has a short in it somewhere and is now pulling 25amps, getting hot and blowing the fuse. Now I might get some flack for this and I know people just love playing with needles and jets, but I don't so I installed the new Billetron from Lectron. I know, I know "learn to jet" or "read your plugs"etc etc. First start once installed gave a beautiful idle, little smoke as its running slightly rich to keep the temp down in the gnarly stuff, starts instantly with little to no choke, doesn't stall as much as I think it has a stronger idle now especially clutch in going downhill, and I can lean/richen trail side in 3 min. Maybe good jetting gets it to 100% performance some of the time, but I prefer 90% performance all the time. First ride yesterday with the Lectron and it feels fantastic. Maybe on an open stretch there is more hit with a carb? Don't know, don't really ride it like that. The main thing I got from it was fuel economy, Only used 3-4 litres yesterday instead of 6 or 7, similar to my mates 20 KTM 300 who used to give me shit about running out of fuel. Not sure where all that fuel was going before but whatever is going on I'm happy.

                            Front valves were a bit harsh for riding I do. Was nice over higher speed stuff though. I put in heavier springs and gold valves a few rides back and now feels excellent. rides nicely over everything without deflecting or giving me shoulder pain the day after. Rear shock was spot on, even sag was correct for my 100kgs.

                            These are only nit picks and I can't help myself from fiddling with stuff and setting up to my particular wants, carbs aside. Out of the crate its beautifully built, handles great and goes like an absolute rocket and sounds like nothing else. I get a lot of comments on it like I just rocked up on a Ducati V4R or something. In reality it was a bit over 16k AUD regoed and therefore cheaper than a current base model KTM I believe. And thats with top shelf rims, billet hubs and triple clamps, VForce reeds, KYB's and a great rear shock, Brembo and Nissin hydraulics, vibration damped handlebars, an actual proper functioning E start as well as a kick start and a super smooth counterbalanced engine. I rode my old 17 Beta the other day and couldn't believe how bad it vibrated. I know I have buyers bias but I honestly have no regrets whatsoever.

                            It gets its share of abuse, scratches and scars but once washed comes up looking like a top shelf race bike.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by The Hack View Post
                              Anyone have any more to add to this thread? I was super keen on picking up a 22 carby version until I picked up on this fuel issue. Do they really need race fuel?? Not real convenient is it. If anyone could confirm the fuel tank capacity would be great too. There are various quantities mentioned. 9.5l, 8.7l with 12l available as an option. My guess is 8.7l would be the TPI version allowing for the fuel pump but very hard to verify.
                              Threads getting a bit old and not sure what you ended up gettting but if its any help the standard fuel tank is around 9 litres and the extended is 12. In standard trim the airbox gets its air from a sloted cover just behind the fuel cap and travels under the seat. This keeps a lot of dust out of the filter and I only clean it every 6-8 hours and even then its still pretty clean. If you go for the 12 litre tank it entirely fills the area previously used for the air intake and I believe there are some fake looking vents {stickers} that you cut out of the plastics on the side of the airbox. Probably still get enough air without this be meh.

                              I read somewhere the 22's tpi's arent really tpi's as in fuel is not injected in the tranfer port but rather via a throttle body. Not sure how much truth there is to that but I'd take that over a typical TPI setup. Especially if all it was doing was was replacing a carby with a throttle body and injector allowing you to still run premix and set your own oil requirements and perhaps do a bit of custom mapping

                              Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, I think it will run fine on 95 or 98 and I believe the pinging issue really only relates to the upper rev range and probably only older models, all those threads were circa 2006-2009. Given how much power these have I don't find myself there often or for very long. In fact the only time I let it have its legs a bit was on the road between tracks. I was riding on gummy tyres at 8 psi. It got to 130 really quick and I chickened out. Would love to try this thing in motard form with more confidence inspiring rubber.

                              Comment

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