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  • 2020 Beta

    I've got some of the new ZF suspension on the dyno for the first time.

    Who has got some seat of the pants feedback for me?
    Attached Files

  • #2
    See Gibboís latest post matey.
    Current toys, Subaru powered Manxter buggy, 2018 Gasgas Ec300, Mt-09 Tracer 2016,
    Previous toys, TM En300 2016, 2004 Ec300, 2009 Tenere 660, 1996 Cr250, 1984 Yz100, 2006 FZ6, 1981 Z750, 1981 XL250s.

    If you could reason with religious people there would be no religious people.. House.

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    • #3
      Everything I have seen/heard/read says that they are much like Xplors (funny that...): lovely on small stuff, but blow through too easily on the bigger hits.

      I own a 2019 Beta that the 52yo, 70kg trail rider previous owner fitted some Marzocchi CC forks to. That said enough to me that I have not been tempted to refit the ZFs...

      This is Gibboís latest post: http://www.dirtbikeworld.net/forum/s...71#post2069471
      Beta 200RR

      Comment


      • #4
        2020 RR300, 90kg onboard, .42 & 5.2 respectively, zero preload. UHD tubes, 12 & 10psi f & r respectively, fork up 3.5mm in clamps, 105mm race sag. Clickers & oil volume per fork leg stock.

        Fork - At sub-30km/h over orange-sized sandstone rocks, sandstone flats & some rooty loam surfaces the fork is plush enough in the initial part of the stroke. Not had much of an issue with deflection yet. I donít find it dives too much at these speeds, either. Damping is reasonable, but hardly top shelf. It does feel Ďspringyí rather than well damped & is all-round pretty soft. Opening the Comp seems to make it vague rather than more comfy.

        Above 30km/h with multiple consecutive hits, the fork starts to get harsh in the mid-stroke but still resists diving pretty well. The sheer balance of the chassis (& great shock) seems to help to keep the bike stable & driving at higher speeds.

        Shock - it is fairly firm for me at all speeds- even with a 5.2 spring (about 30mm of thread showing above spring) - but feels well-damped & rides great in the terrain described above. The rear-end is compliant & finds traction better than the Ď18 - perhaps the longer swing-arm & tweaked valving? Doesnít appear to pack down or get harsh but Iím not really a shock guy & donít know that much about what makes them tick.
        Iíve never had any issue with the 3 Sachs shocks Iíve ridden. Always liked the feel of them. Thatís all Iíve got!
        2020 Beta RR300

        Comment


        • #5
          I rode a 350 stock out of the box and found the front ZF fork pretty good. This was on sand. did not change a clicker. Yes for hard pack I think a revalve might help for some initial plushness. In the bigger whoops it held up well and was surprisingly very good. At race pace though the trees it was awesome, The shock is really good, Never had an issue with Beta shocks, Respring them for weight and they are good for 75% of riders. The ZF fork in the time I have had Beta's, 16 on, has suffered from stiction, Try moving the fork with it disassembled. This related to harshness on the small stuff. Be interesting to see if that is still the case. With sand its not such an issue at speed but anywhere else it is a major prob, my verdict is they are pretty good, but like any fork, Depends where you ride and ability. Miles in front of an 4CS. I ended up getting a race with the KYB but yet to get any seat time. Hopefully this weekend, Be interested in what you find. Keep me in the loop!!!
          WANTED, OLD MX BIKES OR PARTS
          Life is all about ASS, Kissing it, kicking it, covering it and trying to get it!!!
          "Going to McDonalds for a salad roll is like going to a brothel for a hug"

          2016 Beta 300 RR, 2013 KTM500 EXC, !
          Plus all this vintage stuff!!!!!!
          72 Husky 400, 73 Husky 250, 77 RM 370x2 77 Honda CR 125, 79 Honda CR125, XR 75, 79 XL500 Honda hybird, 86 Suzuki TSX 250, 82 Honda CR480,83 CR250, 83 YZ 490, 77 Honda 750/4, 77 Maico 400 84 KDX 200/ 250, 90 KDX200

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          • #6
            Thanks for the feedback so far. Most of it is making sense and was expected, except for this comment
            Originally posted by gibnut View Post
            Opening the Comp seems to make it vague rather than more comfy.

            I've attached a screenshot of a few dyno runs on the forks. They are with the compression clicker at 0, 5, 10 & 20 clicks out. The rebound clicker was unchanged at R10.

            As you can see, there is no discernible change in the damping graph at all these clicker settings. So I'm a bit surprised you felt a change gibnut.

            For comparisons sake, I've added a second screenshot. The green trace is with the rebound clicker screwed in to R5. This has provided a decent change as we would want a clicker to do.

            So at this stage, I'm thinking the compression adjuster on the top of the right fork is just there for looks, very much the same as the WP Xplor forks. This comes as no surprise when you consider Sachs tend to copy the WP architecture.
            Attached Files

            Comment


            • #7
              Grips

              Gibnut, I'm quoting you from your review.

              Originally posted by gibnut View Post
              * Handgrips - I used to love the stockers, but this batch appears to be made of concrete.
              Now possibly the grips are to firm, but maybe its the fork.

              When I first ride my 2017 450EXC with the Xplor forks, I got real sore hands. The kind of sore I get after a 200km day, but I got them after only 40km on this new bike.

              I blamed the grips and swapped to my old favourites, Renthal Kevlars. But I still got sore hands.

              It didn't take me long to realise that the new Xplor forks lacked damping, so I set about revalving them. Fast forward a couple of months and I built the attachments to start dynoing forks.

              This is where things got interesting. I never realised how much damping the Xplor forks lacked until I measured them and could see some numbers.

              Once I valved some decent damping into them, the sore hands went away. It was at this stage that I realised my sore hands were coming from over oscillating forks. The front of the bike was just going up and down far too often and far too easily.

              Now onto the Beta forks. They too lack damping. I've attached a screen shot comparing the Beta forks in red to some Sherco forks in blue. I even colour matched the graphs to the bikes

              So maybe, just maybe, the grips wont seems as bad if we can keep the grips still.
              Attached Files

              Comment


              • #8
                Excellent work, DWB.

                I rode exactly the same stretch of corrugated sandstone I always use for suspension tweakage before & after opening the Comp clickers, too - maybe I took slightly different lines both times?

                Your objective data shows there is no Ďrealí difference!

                I am going to try some EnduroSpec Lucky carts in the fork - have you had a squiz at them? Reports suggest they work very well in my terrain.
                2020 Beta RR300

                Comment


                • #9
                  Got my std Beta ZF forks after 5 hours of riding and put them in the corner and fitted my SSS problem solved. The shock is not to bad very heavy rebound circuit on the 4st ended up running on a dyno and fitting a KYB piston more for the piston band. The curve we settled on is reasonably close to stock the cross over from rebound adjustment to comp changes was larger than the tuner has seen on other shocks. Running a 5.8 rear and 0.48 fronts. Pretty happy with the bike so far no races yet though. I feel the 20 needs a firmer fork than the previous generation may go up a spring rate in one leg after I try a bit more oil if that doesn't work. The 390 engine such a gem....
                  MM

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Shock Tuning

                    So the general consensus is that the shock is pretty good and I agree, especially compared to the forks.

                    I think the biggest issue with the shock is that it is lacking low speed rebound control. This is pretty common for Sach shocks. There is a decent improvement in traction to be had here. The trouble is that the shock already has a reasonable amount of high speed rebound damping and adjusting the clicker is only going to increase this to a undesirable level.

                    The attached screenshot shows two dyno runs. The red graph is with stock clicker settings. The black graph is with the rebound adjuster screwed in significantly.

                    The black arrow shows the changes in low speed rebound and the red arrow shows changes in high speed rebound.

                    My ideal damping curve would be the low speed from running the rebound clicker in and the high speed from running the rebound clicker out. Or in other words, the black graph at the black arrow and the red graph at the red arrow. Make sense?

                    So its time for a revalve.
                    Attached Files

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Marty MOOSE View Post
                      The cross over from rebound adjustment to comp changes was larger than the tuner has seen on other shocks.
                      MM
                      Mr Moose,

                      I'm not seeing anything unusual on my graph. You can see quiet a large change to the rebound curve (bottom half of the graph) and yet the compression (top half) hasn't changed much.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Graph makes sense. I did 2 slow laps on the weekend. It did nothing weird and felt quite good on a sandy whooped out track. 108mm sag on the rear. Also watched a fast expert rider on my bike as well. The shock was following the ground well, but seemed a little soft for the whoops he was in. Prob could have speed up the reb a touch but not enough hrs on it yet to make changes
                        WANTED, OLD MX BIKES OR PARTS
                        Life is all about ASS, Kissing it, kicking it, covering it and trying to get it!!!
                        "Going to McDonalds for a salad roll is like going to a brothel for a hug"

                        2016 Beta 300 RR, 2013 KTM500 EXC, !
                        Plus all this vintage stuff!!!!!!
                        72 Husky 400, 73 Husky 250, 77 RM 370x2 77 Honda CR 125, 79 Honda CR125, XR 75, 79 XL500 Honda hybird, 86 Suzuki TSX 250, 82 Honda CR480,83 CR250, 83 YZ 490, 77 Honda 750/4, 77 Maico 400 84 KDX 200/ 250, 90 KDX200

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by dwb79 View Post
                          Mr Moose,

                          I'm not seeing anything unusual on my graph. You can see quiet a large change to the rebound curve (bottom half of the graph) and yet the compression (top half) hasn't changed much.
                          Can only report what we saw! The only other change we made was the KYB piston which had a radically different shim stack to what I thought would work.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by dwb79 View Post
                            So the general consensus is that the shock is pretty good and I agree, especially compared to the forks.

                            I think the biggest issue with the shock is that it is lacking low speed rebound control. This is pretty common for Sach shocks. There is a decent improvement in traction to be had here. The trouble is that the shock already has a reasonable amount of high speed rebound damping and adjusting the clicker is only going to increase this to a undesirable level.

                            The attached screenshot shows two dyno runs. The red graph is with stock clicker settings. The black graph is with the rebound adjuster screwed in significantly.

                            The black arrow shows the changes in low speed rebound and the red arrow shows changes in high speed rebound.

                            My ideal damping curve would be the low speed from running the rebound clicker in and the high speed from running the rebound clicker out. Or in other words, the black graph at the black arrow and the red graph at the red arrow. Make sense?

                            So its time for a revalve.

                            How far is significantly?

                            At what point do you typically start to see cross talk between the comp and rebound circuits?

                            I know on many shocks I've tinkered with as you come towards 0 on the rebound the comp side all but hydraulically locks itself up. Definite cross talk. Without a dyno and back to back runs and data hard to see where those changes start to make considerable differences though.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Jakobi View Post
                              How far is significantly?
                              10 clicks in

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